dpm99

Right. Helmholtz Resonance. Should be ok to have it on the back though, right? When Taylor was designing the T5, they started with the sound hole on the back, and only changed it because Bob Taylor didn't like the way that looked. Supposedly, the effect was the same. That's a thought worth considering. You're right that it will influence the tone. Doesn't everything with acoustics? It will have an effect on the vibration of the top, which will change the acoustic sound. It would certainly be possible to do it too. I could even brace the back, like on a normal acoustic. I dunno. So many ways to go. How do you think that would effect the electric guitar sound? Or do you think it even would effect that? Thanks for your help, Geo!

I really appreciate that, Geo. As for the sound hole, it's sort of a misnomer. You may know that already. But really the sound comes from the sound board. The hole is more or less a vent. At least that's what I'm told. David Myka has been helping me a little, and he said the same thing. And I'd be hard pressed to think of anyone with more knowledge about hybrids that would actually talk to me and help me with my design. I'm really grateful to him. I think the balance is gonna be ok. I've actually changed the design since I put that last one up, on some advice from David. I mentioned this in my response to MexicanBreed, but I've actually integrated a couple of sound holes into the design now. You can see them on the back of the guitar. They are integrated into the control plates, which will be held on with strong magnets. jmrentis is gonna show me how to do that. (Right J?) That way, even after construction is done, I can dial in tone by playing around with different sizes and shapes of the holes. I've thought about balance a little too. I think I'm gonna make the sides and back 1/2" thick, which is about twice as thick as you'd find on an acoustic. I'm also going to make the body 3" thick instead of 2". I think it will help the acoustic tone enough to be worth the sacrifice of a little comfort. Anyway, it should be significantly heavier than your average acoustic, but lighter than most electrics. Here's the latest sketch. FYI, I'm really thinking walnut for the body with a bearclaw spruce top, and a walnut neck with a maple center stripe. What do you think?

Nice design. Now you just have more time to refine it, I guess. Right?

Woah, you're right! I'd never seen a Byrdland with a Florentine cutaway until you said that, and now I'm finding lots. It's pretty similar, but my lines are a little different. Thank you for your kind words. I've put a lot of thought into the design. I'm still debating whether I want a bigger body. I waver back and forth. I also came up with another idea tonight for a sound hole. I'm going to incorporate a "part-time" sound hole into the control cavity cover. That way I can experiment with it even after construction is finished by making new covers. I can also bring a couple to each gig, so I can change them out depending on what kind of sound I'm getting, or if I'm having trouble with feedback. Since hybrids are weird and unpredictable, let me throw out some questions and see if anyone will bite. 1. How would you expect this guitar to perform as an electric guitar? 2. How would you expect this guitar to perform as an acoustic guitar (for those that understand acoustics, which are also weird)?

I'm hoping to start construction on this soon, but I want to have my plans vetted first. Below you'll find a picture of the top, the binding plan (just a sketch), a side view, and a back view. Please forgive the lack of sophistication here. It was done with Paint, and much of it is just a rough sketch. The plan is to make a true hybrid that can hold it's own as an acoustic guitar. Here's the plan so far: Top: Flat top Sitka Spruce Body: Fully hollowed out, 2" thick (Wood TBA) Neck: Bolt-on laminate with carbon fiber rods and StewMac double-action truss rod (Wood TBA) Electric pickups: Seymour Duncan P-Rails Acoustic pickups: K&K Pure Western Mini (It's what David Myka recommended to me, and I think it's the way I want to go. Not positive yet though.) Output: I haven't got a definite wiring scheme yet, but it will involve sending the acoustic sound to the mixing board and the electric sound separately to an amp. Strings: Hybrid (e.g. DR Zebra) Scale: 24.75" You'll notice a big piece of wood around the pickups in the bracing plan. I got that idea from Rick Turner. It should help with feedback. I think everything else is fairly obvious from the picture. A couple notes. First, the body shape is derived from the Gibson Barney Kessel, with the primary differences being that I've modified it into a single cut and, obviously, it's a flat top. Also, I was planning originally on a 4" thick body with bent sides, but after doing some research, I've come to a tentative conclusion that none of that would effect the acoustic sound when plugged in (which is all I care about). If anyone thinks differently, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Opinions? Criticisms? Suggestions? Picture Scale: 1 square = 1 inch Thanks, -Dave P.S. Before anyone mentions it, yes, I've seen the Anderson Crowdster Plus. It's a great guitar.

Or you'd need to remove the fretboard and replace it with a 38" scale fretboard.

I think so too. Then again, I never vote for the winning guitar, so I must have an aberrant opinion. You should enter it.

You rule, Kenny. Good work.

Way to go! How does it sound?

Mmm...popsicles. These are the strings I was talking about. I've linked to 12's. http://www.juststrings.com/drs-zae-12.html Do like Pete says. I meant that anyway. Glue to the inside, so it's not a permanent mod. The popsicle sticks idea isn't bad either.

Don't know why it wouldn't. What are you making those little mounting bracket things out of? Rather than screwing them into the soundboard, I'd glue them. That way, if it doesn't work out, you can always remove it with heat, if you're careful. Whatever you do, make sure you update us. Sound clips too, if possible! EDIT: Also, for strings, consider hybrid strings like DR Zebras. I have some on order, and am anxious to see what they're capable of.

That's good advice Pete, and I appreciate it. I suppose we're getting a little off-topic here, but I'm convinced there's gotta be a better way to build a hybrid. I own a Taylor T5. I also have the K4 equalizer. Without that, it's pretty worthless as an acoustic. With the K4, it's passable. I also have a 1999 Taylor 710 CE with the Fishman Onboard Blender. And straight into the sound system (via a cheap, passive direct box), it blows away the T5. That tells me there's gotta be something more than the electronics at work. I'm trying to figure it all out. I've spent a lot of time listening to all the major hybrids on the market, and tried to compare that against some of the things that have been done with archtops. I've also spent a lot of time trying to figure out what's going on in the world of acoustic pickups. After all that, I really believe the biggest reason that no great hybrids have hit the market is that electric guitar players don't like innovation. They want small, ergonomic bodies. You see this when you read stories about the development of commercial acoustics. It sounds a lot like when someone will come hear with a very original design and make so many changes based on suggestions that it ends up looking like everything else. I'm certainly open to ideas. I remember you mentioning a piezo on the bridge block before. Do you have anything you could link to that I could read? I'd be interested to hear about that for my current project, which uses a Floyd. If you have any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. I'll also be interested to see what happens with your new project. I think it will hit on a few of the things I've been thinking about. -D

It goes back to the other thing we were talking about related to your Jazzstrat project. I want to design a hybrid. In my experience, most hybrids work a lot better as electrics than as acoustics. I want to create something that will work well in both roles. I've spent a lot of time thinking through design, and I feel like I'm re-inventing the wheel as I go. Then again, some of that is probably necessary to make an effective hybrid. I think the best product on the market now is probably the Crowdster Plus from Tom Anderson. I know David Myka has done some work along these lines too. At this point, the general idea is not too dissimilar to the ES335, with the marked distinction of a larger body and a free soundboard. But just running a neck through the middle of an acoustic body won't work, because the bridge needs to be free to vibrate the top. So then I started thinking about an acoustic bridge with no pins, and the strings finally go through a piece of the neck which protrudes through the soundboard, disguised as a tailpiece. Confused yet? Me too. I'm coming to the realization that the electric guitar is all about string vibration (and pickups, etc.), and the acoustic guitar is very much about string vibration, but also about the sound board vibration (in the case of piezo and most other acoustic pickup devices), which is affected by air movement within the body. I'd originally thought that by burying a small electric guitar inside an acoustic guitar (if that makes sense), you could have the best of both worlds with no compromise. I'm realizing that's not exactly true. All the same, I think with enough work, I can build a hybrid unlike anything on the market. So that's why I'm asking so many funny little questions like that. -Dave

Wow. That really explains a lot.

My understanding is that a magnetic pickup works by sensing the velocity of the string vibration. That being said, how will wood affect tone? I realize it does. I just don't quite understand why. Here's my best guess. The density/flexibility/whatever of the wood holds the bridge in such a way that it affects string vibration. Overtones and whatnot may well be caused by the wood resonating in such a way that the bridge somehow picks it up and passes it on to the strings. But any sound the wood itself may produce will not be picked up, and will not affect the amplified sound in any way. Wood is simply an effective conductor of resonant vibration. For this reason, contact between the pickups and the body wood serves no tonal purpose. Is that anywhere close to correct? I hope this isn't a question that's been answered numerous times already. I tried a quick search, but didn't find anything. Thanks, Dave

I honestly didn't think there would be an answer to this question, but I think you guys have done it. After reading John's post, I'm convinced that you can make a body just about as small as you want, and while it won't sound the same, there's no reason it won't sound fine. The issue is ergonomics. Incidentally, here are a few products that might fix that neck diving problem. http://www.sportsauthority.com/product/ind...rentPage=family http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=prod...&lpage=none Seriously John, thanks for doing that. I'd have expected it to have nothing but highs. I'm guessing the pickup had a lot to do with it, but at least those lows are possible. Wez is an encyclopedia. The Gittel, for your viewing pleasure. Thanks for all the good input! -Dave

Personally, I think that would be really cool. Another thing you could do... Boulder Creek makes the claim that because lows are omnidirectional, the sound hole is just as effective on the side of the guitar. You could also do some tests with a piece of scrap over the main sound hole to see what the effect might be.

I don't want to put you out. Do you have the quad-rail tapped? I'd think the Avenger would be a closer comparison to that either way, assuming that the quad-rail is passive, which I think it is. I'm not starting construction anytime soon, but I'd be curious to hear your impressions if you find time to compare them.

John, I was hoping you'd see this. I remember that guitar and was thinking about it earlier. Do you hear much of a tonal difference between something like that and a traditional body? If so, how would you describe it? Yup. I mentioned it in my original post. And you're right about strap placement. I'm not really worried about balance for my project, but you guys are right in pointing that out in relation to the topic. I'm thinking more in terms of tone. Ok, let's take it a step further then. Let's say somebody wants to build this and asks you for advice. It's called "The Broomstick." Maybe they're like....allergic to wood or something. And carbon fiber and aluminum and plastic and whatever else you might suggest. Ok, bad analogy. But you get the idea. Now, let's assume you could add a little wood in there. How would you alter the design? Assuming you've got enough reinforcement within the Broomstick to prevent bowing*, and ergonomics is not a factor, where would you add the wood? Or would you? (By the way, I have no intention of building this. I'm just trying to isolate some design principles. And thanks for your replies.) *It's made of Nobenda, a newly discovered wood from a remote area of the South American rainforest. Nobenda is tonally similar to Mahogany, but many times stronger.

For my next project, I need to think about some fundamental principles. It's often said that more a bigger body (more wood) doesn't necessarily mean a bigger sound. But there comes a point at which that's not true anymore. For example, a hollow body guitar sounds different than a solid body guitar. I'm wondering how small you can make a body and still have a half-decent solid body sound. For example, if you had a neck through guitar with no wings (like a Chapman Stick), could you effectively play what you've been playing on your electric guitar? Further, and maybe more importantly, where do you think having body mass matters the most? Around the pickups? Around the bridge area? I realize I'm getting into theory. I'd sure love to hear opinions, even if you're not really sure. Thanks, Dave

I'm really glad you brought up this topic. I've been doing a bit of research on this topic for my next build, which I won't begin until 2009 (probably). The location of the sound hole is one thing that defines the sound you get on a Boulder Creek guitar, but I think the bracing system is even more innovative. Behold..... Linky Daniel's player's hole differs from the Boulder Creek one in several ways. One is the location, which is self-evident. Another is size. Because Daniel also has a regular sound hole, he can get away with a small player's hole. The Boulder Creek guitar, on the other hand, needs a larger hole (almost 4" in diameter) because of something called Helmholz Resonance. Click here for an excellent article on the subject. I'm not going to try and explain it, but a significant part of the acoustic sound comes from the air inside the body. The sound hole is critical to that aspect. Cutting an additional hole in a guitar will affect the air flow. I appreciated Daniel's description of how that worked in his guitar. I can also tell you that people have described larger sound holes (traditional ones) as producing brighter sounds. Here I'm just getting into conjecture, but I'd be surprised if cutting an additional hole in every guitar would make it sound better. There are a lot of variables. -Dave

No, I meant the strat stuff. There are several ways you could go about that bridge idea, but it's kind of a project in itself. Putting strat pickups and a bridge on an archtop may have been done before, but I've never seen it.

I was waiting for someone else to say something first, but for what it's worth, I really think you should do it. You've mentioned it several times, and I think it's clearly what you want to do. Besides that, I say the more out there you get, the more you're going to figure out to help with your future builds, and all of ours as well. That's my two cents. -Dave

Personally, I like the abalone.

Woah! Somebody already invented it?