GregP

I don't even know how to begin answering that question. <chuckle> Greg

Haven't I been saying ALL ALONG that a zero fret will be the same for intonation as a perfectly cut normal nut, difference in tone being a separate issue? <shrug> If you're looking for more of an argument, Perry, you won't find it here. However, the assumption that they'd be used by more manufacturers if they were great is a fallacy in logic called, "ad populem" which means that you are using other people's preferences as an argument. People do it every day, but that doesn't make it any less of a flawed argument. It's not like I never looked into these things, and part of the problem with my guitar's progress is that I research TOO MUCH. Technicians, Buzz Feitin's site, Koch's book, a different forum, have all supported the idea of zero fret as a good one. All I ever said was, "don't overlook it because of elitism", which a lot of people seem willing to do. Greg

I imagine having that many magnetic sources close to the strings WILL have an impact on the sustain. I hadn't thought of that. But, there have been 5-pickup systems out in the market many times before and it's not noted as a truly horrific thing, or people wouldn't do it. I bet there IS a measureable difference in sustain, though. Greg

THAT I agree with. In no way is it some sort of revolutionary innovation. I didn't realize they were seeking patent on it, either. You CAN do a 513 system using available materials, and I'm sure there's a few people out there in the world that already have. Greg

Doesn't my post take that into account? If not-- you can make an incorrectly slotted compensated nut just as easily as you can make an incorrectly slotted normal nut. The two things are not mutually exclusive. I'm mostly thinking of the people who buy pre-compensated nuts like the Earvana, and then at BEST try to size the slots accordingly. Just because someone has a compensated nut doesn't mean they're a craftsman or are going to do a good job of it. On the other hand, I now have no doubt that a properly-slotted AND compensated nut is the best that nut 'technology' has to offer. The thread has made me think about it a lot more deeply, and I agree that a finely crafted compensated nut has got to be better than a mere zero fret in terms of intonation (if not consistency of tone). But, in a way that brings me full circle-- a zero fret is simply the best option for people who want consistency of tone, ease of installation, and very close to flawless (not even a compensated nut can promise 'flawless' by nature of the beast) intonation. It's amazing to me that more people don't use them. You say that "a lot of work goes into making a correct one" and I agree. Which is why I wager that there are a LOT of incorrectly made ones out there, and that few people have the skill or dedication to make one properly. A dedicated professional luthier like you is able to make them, and can use them to help justify the boutique prices on your finely-crafted guitars. Change your string guage of preference, and all that compensated nut precision can be thrown out the window, too. Certain principles still apply, so it'll likely still work to a certain degree, but it won't be the same. Greg

Each single coil really is a single coil. They're not stacked HBs. They're coil-tapped single-coils, though there isn't an option for using ONLY the coil-split single coils. Greg

Woohoo! I'm worried, though, that BluesPresence will go nutty. I mean, here's a guy with no sense of fair play, responsibility, even-temperedness, or such concepts. JK, of course. Congrats guys! Greg

Well, if you know it's not 513 wiring, why did you call the link, "513-like schematic"? As for its correctness, I honestly don't know. I can understand the theories of splitting and so forth, but until I sit down and go to do the wiring on my own guitar, I won't really be making heads nor tails of most diagrams. Greg

Frank-- perhaps somebody convinced Buzz that he was wrong, and hence the new literature. Also, while I know exactly what you're saying about the 'G' string, and you're completely correct, that's why a zero fret is a better option than a plain old nut-- because the distance that you're 'digging in' is less. On a properly cut nut, you should be getting the same action as a zero fret. But how often do we see those properly cut nuts? And then there's the consistency of tone put forward by MasterMinds... some people like it, but some people WANT to have that characteristic sound of hearing the nut, which is part of what causes the "open chord" sound for some people! A compensated nut isn't a horrible idea, and I'm not against it. Some day, I may very well have a guitar with such a nut. But in the meantime, I think that a zero fret will give similar returns for intonation, with less time spent shaping an ultra-precise nut or doing a compensated nut. A compensated nut that doesn't have grooves that are the right depth is STILL compensating for something that's better fixed with a better nut-job or a zero fret. Greg

That's not really it at all. Where's the coil tap? It's the coil tap that separates the 513 system from typical 'split the humbuckers'. Reading the last bit of this thread, I think some people still don't 'get' it. You cannot have the 513 system unless you see 4 wires coming out of each single coil. Greg

I can see where you're coming from, but it's taking a premise too far. A compensated nut really IS only for correcting the first few frets. Back when I was initially researching, Buzz Feitin's site actually SAID that a zero fret eliminates the need (the NEED, not just the possibility) for a compensated nut. I looked again, and that tune isn't being sung anymore. Probably too many people got wise and started installing zero frets. Greg

There you go! As long as you can go halfway and say that it may indeed be placebo effect, then I say make them bone capos, son, make them bone capos. And send me one while you're at it. <grin> Frank, a compensated nut CERTAINLY has merit. If you're going to use a guitar that has a nut, it's definitely a consideration. I wonder, though, if your giant-grip player has ever used a zero fret guitar. Not easy to retrofit a nut-based guitar for one, so that's why a compensated nut is a better option in those cases. But for a built-from-scratch, I bet he'd benefit more from zero fret. Greg

Jeez, MM... it really DOES seem like you're trolling. Greg

Devon, I can't tell if you're being sarcastic about the bone capo.

Thanks for the comments. I agree about the logo... I didn't want to do TOO much scripty stuff since "Celia" will be in script; however, I think you're right. I cut the template the other day, but didn't take any pictures. I'll post pictures when I rout outline of the neck. Glad you got yours on the go! Greg

I'm not sure that people are being clear about string tension. The ONLY things that affect string tension are scale length (the distance from nut to bridge) and stringe guage. Nothing else will affect it, including the machine heads. A nut and a zero fret will have the exact same impact on the string tension. I am a firm believer in zero fret, despite not having tonnes of practical experience with them. It's the only system that makes sense for me for consistency of tone and intonation. Greg

I think it's very useful. The sound of a low-impedance humbucker (which is what you get with the tap) is very different and will overdrive an amp differently than a high-output humbucker. Plus, you get true single-coils, not just a 'half-humbucker' split. I can't imagine a more versatile system unless you start adding active electronics. Greg

I don't see how the P90 can have 'too hot' of output. If it has hot output, turn down the gain on your input a bit and it won't clip. Greg

Hardtails still have their place. I want some of each. Will the tremol-no be compatible with Steinberger R-type trem? Er... Just kidding. (I'll get me coat)

Gotta agree... I don't know enough to say 'why', but it's pretty clear that the Motherbucker, and not the P90, is the culprit. My very poor amateur guess is that somehow you've crossed wires and are having phasing issues (the signals from each coil are largely cancelling each other out). Greg

Gotta say, it's not this crew that's getting 'defensive', it's a crew of people who understand the instrument and are perhaps zealous to educate. That's not a bad thing... it's just that you proposed a few only semi-thought-out theories and then when they were questioned you defended them too rigorously with weak logic. That's about it. Regarding the maths, Setch has it bang-on. Measure along any given string, and you will not notice a perceptible shift, even if the trigonometry indicates that there is a wee bit of a shift. I think you will discover that the mere act of pressing down on the string will introduce a FAR greater and more noticeable discrepancy in tuning accuracy than this theory of angled strings, to the point where even thinking that the string angle is a factor is almost unthinkable. That's why compensated nuts and tuning systems were invented-- because this discrepancy is HUGE (by comparison) the closer you get to the nut. Way up at fret 12, not so much. It's also why I'm an advocate of zero fret instead of nut. Can't say that I've had any real experience with it myself (yet), but my logic tells me that it's the way to go for my needs and due to the fact I won't be able to shape a nut with the accuracy required. Given the argument that merely playing your strings is a far significant factor than the shape of tapered neck, I think it's only reasonable that anyone should acknowledge that the comfort gained from a tapered neck is a much greater deciding factor. Also, I can't say that I'd ever want a one-piece neck. For a wood like maple, it's almost a given that it will warp sooner than later, and it's just a matter of 'when'. Greg

PatientZero- I was responding to MasterMinds, who in the first post, indicated that the distance from nut to tuning peg will affect tension, which it will not. You're of course absolutely right that increasing distance from nut to bridge WILL result in tension considerations. Greg

The distance from nut to machine head has no impact whatsoever on the string's tension. Any guitar string I've seen is plenty long for a 27" scale neck, so you should be in the clear. Greg

The big feature is coil tapping. I mentioned this in another post, but here's the skinny: There are 3 modes: 1. Single coil 2. Normal ("heavy") Humbucker (single coils combined as humbuckers) 3. Clean Humbucker (single coils are combined as humbuckers, but coil tapped so that the full coil of each isn't used) 3 modes X 5-way selector switch = 15 combinations. BUT, since the middle pickup is always the same, it's the exact same sound in all three modes and so it only counts once. So, 13 actual different tones. Greg

I disagree. I think the 513 offers an excellent range of possibilities, and adds something new to the mix that was previously unavailable. What confuses me is this: - the 513 does not include on-board distortion - the 513 does not have a sustainer system. All it is is a thorough way of coil tapping (as opposed to merely splitting, which is what most of us have been doing) so that you can have single coil, humbucker, and low-output humbucker modes. I think it's fantastic in theory, and if it was available separately, I'd seriously consider going for it. No toy, this. Greg