GregP

What's more, I WAS being polite, and suddenly you've turned around on me in the blink of an eye. I'm not in control of how you may or may not read into my words, but all I can do is assure you that nobody in particular was being attacked on a personal level. Do I think dismissing a zero fret out of hand is a bit snobbish? Yes, I do. That doesn't mean I was gunning for anybody in particular. I can tell my best friend that he's being an a-hole when he throws a penny at a prostitute on the street, but he's still my best friend. Really, if you're disappointed, and so am I, that makes disappointment all around. So much for mutual support and education and discussing varying (and sometimes conflicting!) viewpoints, when I get accused of doing something 'wrong' just for sticking to my guns. Greg

Wes, I don't even know what to say. I've been misunderstood, and there's little point trying to argue with you about it. I also know that I've been slighted in this thread, and I have had a thick enough skin to take it. I'm sure that everybody else in this thread can take it as well with no sort of residual feelings of animosity. It was only a debate, after all. Get off your high horse and quit being a hypocrite while you're at it. You're the absolute KING of 'sticking it' to people with blunt language and then saying, "I only tell it like it is" by way of apology. You're right about the Speedloader, but if you couldn't see the humour in my being contrary, then a joke was simply lost on you. You want to talk about disappointed? I thought I was surrounded by helpful people, and I've been ganged up on repeatedly here; and what's worse, it's by people whom I would have loved to have gotten help from at some point in time. Now, just because I like to have a debate, I'm being painted by you and other forum regulars as a 'bad guy'? I'm boggled as to how the heck that could have happened. Greg

good idea.save your money and use a speedloader instead of a transtrem.it's what i would do. and then you do not need a zero fret...the speedloader nut installs just like a regular locking nut as a matter of fact you cannot use a zero fret with a speedloader nut ← Actually, though I offhandedly mentioned the zero fret, in actual fact if you dig out the threads in which I've discussed it, Speedloader is at the top of my list. I wouldn't use a zero fret with it, but I bet you COULD, even though it's not designed to.

Au contraire. I never took a jab at anyone, and I'm disappointed that you would think that's my motivation. I don't even know how Lovekraft factors into it... ??? Neither of us can prove our point, but I DID think about it. You're about the third person who seems to believe that just because I don't share your perspective, that I haven't "thought" mine out. It's insulting, especially considering my track record on this forum. I'm not known as a troll, and AM known for being pretty humble. But I don't have to factor "submissiveness" into the modesty equation, and I do NOT back down in a debate just to appease people. So, given the extensive argument I already presented, that you may have been too busy to read (regarding the storage of the food), I DO think it's good engineering because it tackles the problem at the root, rather than trying to develop an unecessarily complex solution. Do you REALLY think they couldn't have engineered a locking system for their nut, similar to an integrated Floyd Rose locking nut? Of course they could have. But good engineering probably entered into the equation. He may very well have been having design problems, and then someone may very well have said (as my local luthier said to me when discussing compensated nuts) "Or, you could use a zero fret." THAT, Wes, is GOOD engineering!!! Back to the jab thing... that last post of yours was a CLEAR jab at me, and other people have made clear jabs as well. Funny how when it's the other side of the debate, it's OK, but when the tables are turned suddenly I'm a bad guy just for continuing to support and provide evidence for my point of view. It's mind-boggling to me. I value the skills of the members here, and I always listen to advice, particularly when I request it. I'm not prone to throw jabs around, but Lovekraft is one of the LAST people I would insult. A debate is not a jab, it's a debate. Shame on YOU, Wes, and here's an eyeroll emoticon right back atcha: Greg

Hey, that strikes me as good engineering. And it echoes one of the points I've been saying all along about zero frets. <chuckle> Good of Ned to realize this instead of getting snobbish about it. Greg

Consider it retracted, then. You can't deny... KxK was a poor choice of a name and logo when it looks so much like KKK. But that certainly doesn't mean that the guy is racist, and it would have been enough to point out the unfortunate choice of name (as I did in page 1) rather than continue to riff on it. No offence intended, that's for sure. Greg

Nah, that was close enough. You're absolutely right that being a visionary doesn't mean that you got it 'all' right. However, in this particular case (not having talked to Ned myself) I'll have to extend him the benefit of the doubt that when he was designing the guitar and it came to the nut (which I'm sure he's aware is an important part of design), he would have consciously chosen the zero fret. It's not like at the end of the day they would have said, "shoot, we forgot about the nut!" and Ned would have said, "Bah, just throw a zero fret on there." Regarding the quality-- what can I say. I didn't see the one particular guitar you tried, and I haven't been at every Ibanez customer's house when they got their $900 guitar and decided whether or not to keep or return it. I'm planning to build my own headless rather than buy one anyhow... and it's a fairly safe bet that it'll have a zero fret, too.

[joke about the similarity between "kxk" and "kkk" retracted]

They've re-released their top-end line, though. <shrug> I wouldn't have bought a Spirit Steinberger, either. I wouldn't argue too much about import parts, though... that's pretty much every manufacturer out there. I trust Lovekraft, too, and if he gives me advice some day about HOW to cut a nut properly, I'll listen with open ears. But that doesn't mean he has the answers to every and all guitar-related question or manufacturing question. Greg

OK, I'll buy that. No broken heart over here. So that leaves me with: a. install pre-slotted nut b. install pre-fab fretwire Either way, it's an extra cost. Rather than arguing with that, though, I'd be curious to hear someone else's "from scratch" explanation as to why they think a zero fret is cheaper and easier to install. It's easy enough to throw up red herrings, but the core issue isn't being spoken to that way. It's a small point, and it's been accepted at least by me... but it doesn't negate the point made about engineering practices or answer the question, "why do cheapie companies use nuts, then, rather than zero frets?" Of course, nobody has addressed the other point that I raised about Steinberger using them. But that's fine... it IS, after all, only one example of a company that uses them. Greg

I play without pinkie, but not consciously. I have very strange hand geometry. In most cases. I can literally reach further with my third finger than my pinkie. Now, I'm not saying SRV is that way, and I wish I wasn't that way. People tell me to stretch and it'll get there, but then I show them my hand. It literally isn't shaped properly, and the pinkie is too small compared to normal ratios, so I LITERALLY can't reach as far with it. It's a bone structure thing, which no amount of stretching and practicing will fix. Clapton also does not use pinkie for soloing. Jimi, SRV, and Clapton are three of my top heroes, so I feel that I'm in good company. On the other hand, I also acknowledge the power of being able to use a pinkie, but it'll never happen for me in certain situations. Box patterns, though, where you don't need to stretch so much, pinkie comes very much in handy and I try to use it wherever possible, but because I -can't- use it for some things, my hand has gotten into the bad habit of not using the pinkie anyhow. Chords, though, you don't really have a choice, so I'm not too surprised that SRV, Clapton, or Jimi use a pinkie for chords. Greg

I don't understand the reasoning behind that. Method 1: mass-installed nuts a. install pre-slotted nut Method 2: zero fret a. install pre-slotted nut b. install, crown, polish, file additional fret <shrug> I'm not saying either is particularly challenging. In Method 2, the additional fret isn't exactly hand-buffed, either, and I know that. But it IS still an additional step, with additional materials. Stretched over mass-production amounts of guitars, that IS a substantial cost in materials AND manufacturing. In a 200 dollar guitar, I assure you that they are NOT making sure each nut and guitar is 'set up' correctly. Greg

Something strikes me as dodgy about it, but I don't know enough about Kramers to put my finger on it. Not that it's a 'scam' per se, but just that certain aspects are being hyped more than they should. "Original Floyd Rose before fine tuners" seems a bit odd.... I don't know. I'd research a bit before jumping in... but that's what you're doing by posting here I guess, so mission accomplished!

It's also much too easy to accuse anyone who disagrees with one's personal point of view of being close-minded. Truth is often counter-intuitive. ← Touchy, touchy. I never said that you're closed-minded, although YOU seem to be dismissing almost anything anyone says that's counter to YOUR opinion of having "missed the point". I am far too good a reader and far too critical a thinker to "miss your point," and if my point of view doesn't happen to coincide with yours, that doesn't mean that I missed anything, but rather than my opinion doesn't happen to coincide with yours. Your argument is flawed. It's based on the fact that it's easier to use an existing method than create a new one. Fine. But why did the factories choose to implement the nut rather than nut + zero fret in the first place? Because it's cheaper and easier to install ONE pre-cut nut than it is to install one pre-cut nut (a zero fret requires a nut, too) AND a fret. As for your engineer that you talked to... that's an ad populem argument, and therefore a fallacy. Once upon a time I could have talked to a doctor, who was a supposed expert in medecine, and he would have told me that my illness is caused by an imbalance in the four humours. Engineers have also made plenty of poor design choices in the past. An illustration: A community in a drought-inflicted country was offered aid in order to sustain their populace. This included food rations. The problem was that the rations were prone to spoil before they got used because of improper storage. So, in order to make sure the aid was properly developed, a team of engineers was sent in. They designed a mass refrigeration unit that could store all of the reserves and keep them cool. The problem was that the electricity infrastructure a) cost money; but more importantly was unreliable and would often go down for weeks at a time. Can't run a refrigerator without power. Also, the structure was above ground and constructed largely of aluminum sheeting, which will conduct heat. So not only did the super-fridge need to keep things cool, but it had to use energy to fight the sun's natural heating abilities as well. This is a whole TEAM of engineers. So, an engineer more deserving of the name asked the locals how THEY kept their food stored. As it turns out, they burrow little nooks into the earth, where the earth itself keeps items sheltered and relatively cool. Next step was to create a super-sized version of the community's existing and proven technology. ----- Back to the points: a ) it doesn't matter what your engineer said except that it serves as an example of one person who's on your side. That's fair enough, and it CAN be introduced as part of a debate, but I could talk to a different engineer and he would agree that a nut is easier to install than a nut and a fret. So then we'd have 2 engineers with 2 different points of view, and it wouldn't bring the argument any closer to a resolution. b ) engineering is ABOUT finding the simplest solution. Surely an engineer somewhere along the way realized that the point above ("a") was the simplest solution. I mean, in a way, by appealing to the engineering of the situation as an way to prove a point, you're kind of proving MY point, which is that surely a regular nut is cheaper and easier to install. All I ask is that instead of just arguing, consider all points of view first. Speak to the points made instead of introducing red herrings. You can't just pick the arguments that you feel like addressing and ignore the rest.

It's simply, and I'm guilty of it, too-- We hear somebody who 'seems' to know what they're talking about say it, and we take it as truth. So, somebody says with a tone of authority, "zero frets were just a cheap way for factories to install nuts." Then, even if they've never actually encountered this information themselves, another person will echo that information. Many of us are very quick to take information as a given, especially if it coincides with our own viewpoint. So, if a person is already inclined to think that zero frets look 'cheap', and then someone with only the slightest air of authority 'confirms' their suspicion, that's all the information they need. We're all guilty of doing it at times, but it's dangerous when an individual gives up their ability to be a free and critical thinker. In this very thread, I've done it a few times just because it seemed easier than arguing. By the same virtue, it's easier to jump on somebody's bandwagon than (God forbid) do some thinking of your own. Greg

I agree that it's a rep, but I think reputation is unimportant when compared to design. Steinberger, for example, uses zero fret (and that's including their current Synapse models). And Steinberger aren't known as 'cheap', AND they ARE known as being visionary and concerned with pushing the envelope. <shrug> Obviously Ned and his crew weren't concerned that some factory guitars have used zero fret before. Also, reputation or no reputation, it's not a 'fact' that a zero fret is cheaper to install. If anything, it's easier and cheaper to slide a crappy plastic nut into place than to properly install a fret, so a reputation isn't always based on fact. Sometimes it can be based on simple proliferation of a misconception. I mean, people with misinformation are as likely to pass it along as people with the truth. This forum has demonstrated that more than once. When you consider THAT point of view, it actually explains why so many factory guitars DO use nuts instead of a zero fret. Because at the end of the day, the crappy nut is cheaper and easier to install after all. Come to think of it, I don't want a nut anymore, because it'll make my guitar look cheap. Greg

Godin, Whether I debate with them or not, it's already been written AT LENGTH how a compensated nut works, so I doubt you'll find anyone with the patience to do it again. As for the ugliness-- well, you go ahead and do whatever you need to do to make sure your guitar 'looks good', while I cheerily do whatever it takes to make my guitar play well. There's a primary difference between your goals and mine, I would say. I'd never in a million years try to MAKE anyone do anything. Well, except listen to my songs. Occasionally I make people do that. Greg

Exciting!!! I can't 'give it a go', though, because most of this thread is Greek to me. I just read it in order to stay updated and cheer you on. Greg

There's something to be said for isolating an amplifier from the ground. I don't mean necessarily pointing it at your head (ie. I'm not referring to the direction of the sound waves), but just decoupling it with the surface it's on. On a wooden stage, the coupling could cause an inordinate amount of bass vibration. You don't necessarily need a tilty thing. There are dense foam supports that function to decouple a speaker cab from a surface. Also, by tilting it back, you're ensuring that bass frequencies don't just bounce of the wall behind it, which can have a hugely negative effect. Either the waves can become in phase and therefore twice as loud (giving you far too much bass) or they can go out of phase and therefore cancel each other out. In short: decoupling good, avoiding negative reflections good. Gotta agree about protecting your hearing, though. Wear earplugs, too. Screw anyone who thinks it looks dorky. People with tinnitus will tell you that it's not worth 'protecting your image' or whatever superficialities you're concerned with. Greg

Teles are awesome. I, too, dig the blue one. Lotta character there. Welcome aboard!

I hate to be a bummer, but it looks like those machine heads are too close to the edge of the headstock. Also, it might be a trick of the photographing angle or the grain pattern, but it seems a bit skewed toward the right.

Harumph. I don't agree. And that's a whole bunch of impressionable young people that you've snobbed into thinking that they need a nut or they'll be ridiculed by the elite here. I'm only half serious... I DO think it's elitist and I do think that zero frets are a fantastic idea on many different levels. But, I'm not particularly bothered, as I will continue to think it's a good option regardless of mockery. I've been mocked before... I will be mocked again... And I will still use a zero fret.

Crap, that's what I was afraid of. The "P" word.

I'm with you that you don't need to be told how to play, Wes. Your technique is not only commonly used, but also valid, and best of all-- it's what works for you and what you KNOW you can get results from. Using 3 fingers is still valid, too, though. I simply -can't- use the 2-finger style for fast playing. My index and pinkie fingers have too much "give". They won't stay 'put' and precise. That problem vanishes when I switch to 3 fingers. I'm not the best player in the world, but I know what works for me. Greg PS, I know the venom in your post wasn't directed at me.

Horrible. Same vendor: Worst EVH paint-job ever Greg