Zero-fret replacement

[soapbarstrat]

The zero fret on my old archtop is about twice as high as the rest of the frets.

This is the bad advice i was referring to Rob. I wouldnt normally point fingers at people, but point out to ALL that there is misleading advice somewhere here. Do you agree with me that 0.035-0.055 of nut action is bad?? Its certainly TEN TIMES what you and i strive for!

Nothing personal southpa.

Ok OK, that's higher than I would like too, but I know they come out of the factory like that all too often. And it can easily be tweaked. I'm thinking that advice that should be pointed out as "bad" is something where the guitar gets a irreversible mod or damaging adjustment.

Yeah, my hot temper usually doesn't go over too well, but maybe it's better than the forum drying up and becoming an internet ghost town.

Rob

[rhoads56]

Yeah, my hot temper usually doesn't go over too well, but maybe it's better than the forum drying up and becoming an internet ghost town.

Dont worry, we can be grumpy together Now, lets go have ourselves some fun, and pick on some newbies

[A_M]

Now, lets go have ourselves some fun, and pick on some newbies

I volunteer!

soapbarstrat mentioned that one of his favorite advantages of zero fret equipped guitars was that the strings can move around a bit over the zero fret easing string bending etc. Has anyone experimented with placing the nut on a guitar with a zero string further away than just a few millimeters from the nut? Could that ease bending/improve playability even more or would the additional movement over that fret just disastrously increase wear to the zero fret? (I saw a post in the MIMF Library where someone stated that the zero fret on his guitar was not as worn as the 1st and 2nd frets, presumably because of the proximity of the nut hindering the strings from moving around and grinding against the fret so much)

[GregP]

I'm a string-bending FOOL, and I've yet to need a refret job at all in any of my guitars. In 10 years of service, I'm noticing a wee bit of wear on my acoustic that theoretically COULD be addressed, but I haven't noticed any compromise in sound or playability.

That's not meant to be advice, or to refute anyone's statements-- but I'm imagining that I won't need to replace my zero fret as often as a pro or even a more dedicated enthusiast who plays more regularly than I do.

Greg

[Southpa]

Sorry, I guess I didn't mention that the zero fret on my archtop is twice as high as the rest of the frets because I made it that way. Its my slide guitar, . The wear issue still hasn't been addressed or rebuttled here yet. Zero fret set at the same height as the rest simply won't last as long as it could. Go ahead, prove me wrong. Lets get this out in the open.

[soapbarstrat]

Now, lets go have ourselves some fun, and pick on some newbies 

I volunteer!

soapbarstrat mentioned that one of his favorite advantages of zero fret equipped guitars was that the strings can move around a bit over the zero fret easing string bending etc. Has anyone experimented with placing the nut on a guitar with a zero string further away than just a few millimeters from the nut? Could that ease bending/improve playability even more or would the additional movement over that fret just disastrously increase wear to the zero fret? (I saw a post in the MIMF Library where someone stated that the zero fret on his guitar was not as worn as the 1st and 2nd frets, presumably because of the proximity of the nut hindering the strings from moving around and grinding against the fret so much)

My "long term" experience playing a "zero fret " guitar was around 10 years ago when I was in a band and really liked this parts frankenstrat which was a Chandler body and Chandler neck that Paul Chandler himself hand-picked for me. I later tried one of my first refrets on that neck and made the fret-board too thin, so then I made a new fret-board. Made it 25" scale by leaving the floyd lock-nut where it was, then a "zero-fret" about 1/2" closer to the body, with the rest of the frets spaced from that. So I had 1/2" "play" for the strings to move a bit on the "zero-fret" top, plus I then scalloped the fret-board, making bending too easy. Shorter scale, scallops, "zero fret" all contributed to making the lowest positions a little easier for string bending. Of course, modding a regular nut into a " zero fret" set-up, means the "zero frets" slot must be at the front edge of where the nut was, then some kind of spacer behind it. Having the spacer just right behind the "zero fret" won't give you easier bending. Even having it 1/2" back is pretty subtle. I have a Washburn Nuno neck that would probably work good for having a "zero fret" then a spacer farther back, because the headstock tilts back. I'll probably try that if I don't sell the neck.

[rhoads56]

Well, ive done nine refets on zero fretted guitars this year (four for the same guy), and only one had a zero fret that was worn out a lot. But, the first few frets were EXTREMELY worn also, in fact, more so than any other worn fret ive ever seen (huge big valleys).

My experience has been that the zero frets wear at a slower rate than the first few frets, except where the guitar has a trem, and then it is approximately equal, depending on the type of music played. EG: i have wear on all my guitars at 10-15, and 3,4,5, but not much at 1,2. Most guitars i do fret levels for have worn 1,2,3, 12, 13,14.

[Southpa]

Oh well, I guess thats where our experiences differ. Most of the zero fret guitars I've dealt with had little grooves worn into the zero frets. Lots of those guitars, of course, were vintage "cheapos" produced in the 60's and 70's, some with easily worn brass fretwire. Out of all those guitars the original zero fret height was slightly higher than the rest. And I dare say that if the zero fret was originally the same height there would have been severe buzzing problems on the beginning frets. But I agree we can also chalk it up to playing styles and how often strings are moved around through tuning/detuning, bending and trem use.

I've seen a few builders who specifically mention that they place their zero frets a bit higher to maintain some adequate clearance above the fretboard. So if they are still selling guitars as such then I don't consider it being "bad advice" to build them that way.

[frank falbo]

I see a few things that haven't been discussed here. First, all cheapo guitars have high nuts, not filed to optimum height, so they don't have buzz problems from shifting and settling in transit. That'd be why all the cheapo guitars with zero frets have taller zeros. Not that a taller zero is bad, just that you wouldn't take nut height advice from a beginning asian guitar factory in the 60's or 70's, would you? Especially one using those brass frets!

Second, when you fret a note you're usually toward the front of the fret, digging far more heavily into the "note fret" than the one behind it. That'd be why the zero fret would never have equal wear as 1-5 or whatever.

Third, when you fret a note cleanly (or capo it for that matter) the downward pressure causes a slight elevation in the string just after the fret. Sort of an "up and over." This obviously is infinitely variable by string gauge, finger pressure, fretting location, action, etc. But it does occur, and large frets or scalloping makes it more prominent. To what degree is the variable. So in effect, whenever you fret a note, you are raising the action ever so slightly at that fret. You are not doing that on the zero fret. That'd be why you should want the zero fret a little higher. If that means its simply "unlevelled", that's fine. Or you can use a higher fret.

Fourth, no one's really mentioning neck bow, either. Bow usually becomes more pronounced at the first few frets. So its also possible that with an equal height zero fret, the reality is that it is sitting "higher" than fret #1 simply because it's at the end of the "banana."

Just some food for thought, but please understand that this post doesn't actually "disagree" with anyone. So far, everyone's had a fair view. (except the guy who forgot to tell us it was his "slide guitar" ) Nah I'm just kidding. As far as the wear and tear goes though, most of the time, a player's fretting pressure is far greater than the downward pressure of an angled headstock or string tree. It's that smashing and bending that wears the fret most quickly. So as the string lays more gently over the zero fret getting "wiggled" a little by all the playing, I think the zero fret is more likely to hold up. I could be wrong, but it would seem to me that if a hard plastic nut could hold up fairly well......

[soapbarstrat]

Especially one using those brass frets!

I'd like a brass zero fret, but they just don't come in the right size to work with tall frets. Maybe just a short section under the high E and B.

I like to de-barb the zero-fret enough that it presses in a little easier than a normal fret. Maybe about as snug as a normal nut fits in the slot. Easier to experiment with that way.