RestorationAD Posted May 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 It looks much worse than it truly is. If I keep telling myself this it might be true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 The fix. Wedge the separations open and force fresh West Systems epoxy into the joints then clamp them shut. The West Systems is much thinner than off the shelf 2-part epoxy. It flows into the separations well. Note when epoxy is in a big puddle it will decide very suddenly to cure... in a puff of smoke I was out of epoxy. More to come... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 Ouch, toughie. West System is hilarious when it goes into thermal runaway. I had a measuring cup virtually flash on me two years back. Hope you fix this. You might have to hold onto this one another couple of seasons to observe its movements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 Do you still think the T-88 is to blame, or are you reserving judgemnent till you have more information? Some are going to call me crazy, but when my top got too hot and the epoxy began releasing, the top was actually warping a little and pulling up-- I spread it like you are and wicked in medium CA. Medium was slow enough to allow me to get enough in and fast enough that it didn't have to stay in the clamps for more than 30 minutes. It's been a year now and it's held up great so far. What is the open time on the west systems epoxy? SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 About 12s if you are me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 Do you still think the T-88 is to blame, or are you reserving judgemnent till you have more information? Some are going to call me crazy, but when my top got too hot and the epoxy began releasing, the top was actually warping a little and pulling up-- I spread it like you are and wicked in medium CA. Medium was slow enough to allow me to get enough in and fast enough that it didn't have to stay in the clamps for more than 30 minutes. It's been a year now and it's held up great so far. What is the open time on the west systems epoxy? SR SO the slow cure stuff mixed in a small batch in a low profile cup is a lot longer than a larger batch in a taller cup. About 24 minutes on average. However the stuff is wicked expensive so I try to batch epoxy gluing together. I started on a 7 string fretboard and by the time I got to doing this part I was 15 minutes into the pot of epoxy... Then the great thing about a tall cup of exoxy is when it decides to go it "goes" in smoke... this cup hardened in 30 seconds. Luckily the runnoff from the fretboard was still nice and liquid so I just went to the neck and scraped the excess off it until I had enough. I did not use CA because #1 I already had oil on the body and #2 I need this fix to be permanent and since it already moved once I did not want it to happen again. I looked at the joints last night and they are almost invisible so I think the repair worked. We will see... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonx Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Fingers crossed. Thats a true prick of a thing to happen. I wonder if it would have still happened had the guitar been sealed with 2k? Still - that'd be truely shattering to walk out and see that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Fingers crossed. Thats a true prick of a thing to happen. I wonder if it would have still happened had the guitar been sealed with 2k? Still - that'd be truely shattering to walk out and see that. Sealed with 2K it would not have happened. I think had I sealed the guitar at all before bringing it in the house in the middle of the winter it would have been fine. The wood was all at its smallest in the middle of the winter. Moisture content was at its lowest. Had I sealed it then with shellac it would have been fine. I could have then sanded the shellac off during the finish sanding process and applied my oil. Since the wood was at its smallest when I glued it together and shaped it the Limba was ready to swell at any moment. The minute the humidity hit all that open grain it soaked it up... the Ebony did not because it is not as open and is more stable dimensionally. This was really my fault. Good news is it is fixed. The lines look pretty clean. I will sand it up this weekend and put it back together soon. Then I will finally have an axe to play again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juntunen Guitars Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Then the great thing about a tall cup of exoxy is when it decides to go it "goes" in smoke... this cup hardened in 30 seconds. This is why I only use titebond and hide glue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonx Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 I'd be sanding the crap out of it to try get it back to raw timber then seal it as much as possible to try prevent it from happening again. Imagine how pissed you'd be if it split again? No way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2012 Then the great thing about a tall cup of exoxy is when it decides to go it "goes" in smoke... this cup hardened in 30 seconds. This is why I only use titebond and hide glue Cocobolo does not like either of those. Hide glue works better than titebond on oily cocobolo but still not like epoxy. I'd be sanding the crap out of it to try get it back to raw timber then seal it as much as possible to try prevent it from happening again. Imagine how pissed you'd be if it split again? No way. It is sealed now. No need to sand it back. Behlens Teak Oil is a wiping varnish. The oil penetrates deep pulling the varnish with it then the varnish/oil hardens in the layers of the wood. I would guess the way it drank the oil in it is very deep (When I ran tests last year it would pull 1/2" in to a piece of Sapele). When I hit the guitar on the buttend with compressed air oil would bubble out of the belly carve pores. I am going to hit it with a home brew I am working on when it is all done so it will be sealed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Electronics update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Bad things fixed... Relieved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottR Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Nice save. From here it looks like a flawless repair. We would have never known..... SR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonx Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Nice save. From here it looks like a flawless repair. We would have never known..... SR What he said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Nice save. From here it looks like a flawless repair. We would have never known..... SR Nice save. From here it looks like a flawless repair. We would have never known..... SR What he said! I hope it holds. It went well for now. {knock on wood} Fingers crossed no one will ever notice. I am so relieved it came out clean. BTW everywhere I tried CA it failed... since the body was oiled already it didn't hold anywhere. Thank you West Systems for being serious epoxy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prostheta Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 West System is finicky and unforgiving, but used well it is positively nuclear grade stuff. A million years from now, aliens will excavate a guitar shaped film of epoxy from under the ocean and wonder what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Great save, now get the finish on quick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 West System is finicky and unforgiving, but used well it is positively nuclear grade stuff. A million years from now, aliens will excavate a guitar shaped film of epoxy from under the ocean and wonder what it is. So I am thinking about using West Systems as a type of finish. Does it yellow really bad with time? Great save, now get the finish on quick It has 2 more coats of oil on it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juntunen Guitars Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Cocobolo does not like either of those. Hide glue works better than titebond on oily cocobolo but still not like epoxy. Rub it with acetone right before glueing and let the acetone dry completely and it helps I've heard. I used cocobolo for the bridge, fingerboard, heelcap and headcap on my acoustic build and used titebond each time without using acetone or anything and didn't have an issue at all. I just don't like using epoxy because I believe a guitar should be able to bo taken apart should you need to fix it but that's my preference I know we have gone over this before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattia Posted May 21, 2012 Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 (edited) Polyurethane works well with coco. Some joints on guitars don't ever need to be disassembled (head plate veneers, electric set neck joints, body cap or body laminations), while others (fingerboard) may. Also, Epoxy disassembles just fine with heat. Easier than hot hide (which will want some moisture), and doesn't add humidity to the joint which is why a lot of people (myself included) like it for attaching fingerboards. I use either WEST or 30 minute Z-poxy for structural stuff. Edited May 21, 2012 by Mattia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Cocobolo does not like either of those. Hide glue works better than titebond on oily cocobolo but still not like epoxy. Rub it with acetone right before glueing and let the acetone dry completely and it helps I've heard. I have suggested this on many occasions. I used cocobolo for the bridge, fingerboard, heelcap and headcap on my acoustic build and used titebond each time without using acetone or anything and didn't have an issue at all. I just don't like using epoxy because I believe a guitar should be able to bo taken apart should you need to fix it but that's my preference I know we have gone over this before. I know we have been over this. You bring up a good point I was taught that acoustics should be able to be disassembled and worked on. I agree with that. For the S9 I just can't use hide glue and have it come apart while packed in a trailer or a car trunk or under a bus traveling across the States from gig to gig. Don't tell me it won't because I just watched an epoxied top separate from a body . I have been at this a long time and seen a lot of silly things happen. Epoxy comes apart just as hard as Titebond comes apart. Only hide glue comes apart easily. The same amount of heat that it takes to make Titebond let go will make epoxy let go. Epoxy doesn't respond to steam but the heat from the steam will loosen it. I try to only use epoxy where I do not want water introduced to the joint. Fretboards. I have used it on neck joints recently because it has the ability to span gaps and voids. If I am not going to use traditional methods (read: Hide Glue) then I am going to use the best technical solution I can. I prefer Titebond for everything but there are cases where epoxy is appropriate. Go back through my builds and see how much Cocobolo I use. Over the years I have seen all types of Cocobolo... I have pieces that are dry and after a little acetone Titebond works fine. However I have pieces that Acetone pulls all the oils to the surface and makes Titebond impossible. Now I try not to use these pieces until they are drier (which can take years) but when I have to epoxy is the only solution. I would love to build a Single Cut that is LP like and use hide glue for the joints and fish glue for the frets but can't see me getting to it anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2012 Any one ever use the Smith All Wood Epoxy from LMI? I am interested in how well it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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