avengers63 Posted May 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 It is drilled out on the inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJE-Guitars Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 Oops my bad . . . I flick from the above picture to the next and didn't notice pocket - it was early . . that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it! Good job . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Posted May 19, 2009 Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 I really like the dragon holes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted May 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2009 back glued on top shot - I honestly don't remember why I took this one back rounded over 1/4" Yep - today is a boring progress pic day. Nothing interesting happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verhoevenc Posted May 20, 2009 Report Share Posted May 20, 2009 Titebond II is the devil! Ya know.... just FYI lol Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted May 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2009 Titebond II is the devil! Ya know.... just FYI And I've discovered why. I'll post those pics and the explanation when I get to that stage. In the mean time... thinning down & shaping the heel Notice that I tapered the horns at this time as well. It's not readily evident with these pics, but it's there. It'll be seen more clearly in future shots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted May 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Now it's time for the first, and hopefully last, blunder of this build. I put the control cavity on the wrong side. When you do something like this, all you can do is cuss, then fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WezV Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 doh!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormLeader Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) Man, that stinks, glad you could fix it! My dad and I did somthing like that once, can't remember what it was one, but it's really not hard to do at all. And I'm sorry, but I just have to get this out of my system: Ok, I'm better. -Stormy Edited May 22, 2009 by StormLeader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted May 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 It's OK guys... laugh away. If I were afraid of being laughed at for it, I for dang sure wouldn't have posted it. When you do this, you cuss. A lot. Then you get really mad and want to break something. Then you think "Am I really that much of a bonehead?" Then you get dejected because you know that you are. Oh well. At least it was fixable. It's 99% invisible at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJE-Guitars Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 This why I have taken to drilling my control holes from the top of the straight through the body before routing out the cavity. Very easy to do something like this particularly when tops and backs are involved. Sure does sucks when it happens! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guernica Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 (edited) It's OK guys... laugh away. If I were afraid of being laughed at for it, I for dang sure wouldn't have posted it. When you do this, you cuss. A lot. Then you get really mad and want to break something. Then you think "Am I really that much of a bonehead?" Then you get dejected because you know that you are. Oh well. At least it was fixable. It's 99% invisible at this point. roll with it, ..make it a glove compartment...... .....pics, cigs....... Edited May 22, 2009 by guernica Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodenspoke Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Looking good. Hey you are not susposed to tell us about your mistakes, LOL The only thing is I would have added some black in the cavities behind the body cutouts. The light color wood shows through and distracts from you work. I should have pointed this out a few days ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted May 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 Ya know - I gave some serious thought to spray painting the inside of the back panels black. In hindsight, I probably should have. At the time though, I looked at the semi-acoustics out there and saw that the vast majority of them have raw insides, so that's what I went with. And mentioning it a few days ago wouldn't have helped. The pics are currently on a +/- 2-week delay. [tease]I'm currently in the finishing process.[/tease] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPA or death Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 I'll do one or two things on each guitar that makes me curse uncontrollably. I've found that there is very little that can't be fixed, although at the time it feels unfixable. I guess it's just the fact that a well laid plan has come a little undone that makes me go a little undone myself. Good job on the "fix" and the guitar as a whole. Look forward to seeing the final outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestorationAD Posted May 22, 2009 Report Share Posted May 22, 2009 This why I have taken to drilling my control holes from the top of the straight through the body before routing out the cavity. Very easy to do something like this particularly when tops and backs are involved. Sure does sucks when it happens! +1. I did it once a long time ago... forever now I place my volume switch and drill straight through and look for the hole. BTW I really hate learning that way.... but if you don't break anything you aren't doing anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted May 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2009 Moving back to the neck.... gluing in the inlays with 2-part epoxy sanded down and radiused to 12" moistened with mineral spirits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted May 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 Sealing up the top After a successful test of the ebonizing process I found in Popular Woodworking magazine, I decided to give it a shot on the neck & body. If it doesn't work out so well, I can always just paint it black. The first thing to do is seal off the top, just in case some of the solutions used seep through the tape. I don't know that it'd totally prevent any coloration, but the theory behind sealing the wood is to prevent moisture from getting in, so it SEEMS like it would be the right step to take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skullsession Posted May 26, 2009 Report Share Posted May 26, 2009 It's OK guys... laugh away. If I were afraid of being laughed at for it, I for dang sure wouldn't have posted it. When you do this, you cuss. A lot. Then you get really mad and want to break something. Then you think "Am I really that much of a bonehead?" Then you get dejected because you know that you are. Oh well. At least it was fixable. It's 99% invisible at this point. roll with it, ..make it a glove compartment...... .....pics, cigs....... Yeah...I saw a photo the other day of a guitar that had a compartment in the back where the guy stored a pistol. Very cool indeed. You could go with the whole Dragon theme and keep throwing stars in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted May 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 That extra compartment really isn't such a bad idea. It's 100% novelty, but still not a horrible idea. Maybe store adjustment tools & allen wrenches in there. So my plan WAS to ebonize the poplar. I had done some test pieces which worked out like magic, so I was ready to go for it on the real thing. I had sealed off the top already, so next was to tape off everything. Notice that I even put some wax paper inside the cavity and taped it in place to catch any drips. The first thing you do is flood the wood with this powdered tree bark that's full of tanic acid. It the acid that reacts to the iron-laced vinegar to turn black. This liquid soaks into the wood, taking the acid with it. It also discolors the wood somewhat. That's OK... you're turning it black anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted May 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 After the acid water is all absorbed into the wood, all the standing water has been dabbed off, but it is still moist, it's time to put on the vinegar. Without going into too much detail (it's all readily available on the web), you dissolve a steel wool pad in vinegar, then apply it to the wood. The iron in the vinegar reacts to the tanic acid and turns the wood black. Remember this comment? Titebond II is the devil! Ya know.... Now we'll see why. For those who don't know, Titebond II is waterproof, where Titebond I is not. Clue is a liquid, which means it will absorb into the pores of the wood, partially sealing it and interfering with the absorption of other liquids. When you wipe off the squeeze-out with a damp cloth, you still leave a little behind in the wood. When you scrape it off with a putty knife and rinse it clean, you've essentially made the water into a thin glue wash. When you use this glue water to clean off other glue.... You know, in hindsight it's all so clear and obvious. The glue wash interfered with the even absorption of the acid water, this preventing the iron vinegar from evenly turning the wood black. Where it DID work, it worked beautifully. It just wasn't even. While this is a touch frustrating, I'm really OK with it. If it didn't work for whatever reason, the plan was to paint it black. Heck, the ORIGINAL plan was to paint it black. I found this article about ebonizing after I started the build and thought I'd give it a shot. I'm actually happy knowing that it would have worked, had it not been for the glue wash. So, all I can do is go back to the original plan: sand it, seal/fill it, tape it, primer, and paint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drak Posted May 27, 2009 Report Share Posted May 27, 2009 For those who don't know, Titebond II is waterproof, where Titebond I is not. ...and for those of you who don't know, ...Titebond II is waterproof allright... ...because it never truly dries hard, that's why luthiers don't use it. This has been documented throughout the luthier community for many years now. It's 'waterproof' because it stays forever somewhat flexible, so when your outdoor chair gets wet from the moisture, the glue will 'flex' with the wood expanding and contracting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodenspoke Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 With that process you are just dying the wood as you are not using the Tanic acid in the wood on your guitar to do the conversion. Seems pointless as you found out, hope you got it out of your system. I was very entertaining anyway. I remember commenting on this point when you posted the ebonizing article. I really like the top and the cutouts and each time I see them they look better and better. I had almost though you added black to the cavity as it seems to pop in the last pictures outside. I think it is an optical delusion on my part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avengers63 Posted May 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 With that process you are just dying the wood as you are not using the Tanic acid in the wood on your guitar to do the conversion. Either I don't understand where you're coming from or you didn't get what was happening. The powdered tree bark that was dissolved in water and put onto the wood first is loaded with tanic acid. That all soaks into the wood, thus putting the acid into the wood fibers. The iron vinegar then reacts to the acid and turns it black. Because the acid is inside the wood means the process is happening within the wood fibers rather than a dye soaking into them. Granted - it doesn't soak in that far. Neither does dye. When oak or walnut are ebonized with just the vinegar it only happens as deep as the solution will penetrate. The point is that a chemical reaction is being caused, not the addition of a pigment. I'm really interested in your thoughts about this. Back to the build, routed for the binding It was a conscious choice to route for the binding on the body after the ebonizing attempt. Were it to have worked the way I wanted, but the edged of the bloodwood got black, this would have taken it off. primer No, the body next to the neck isn't the Dragon. It's the quilted PRS body from the Camouflaging Your Mistakes thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodenspoke Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 I'm really interested in your thoughts about this. My experiences with furniture and this process has alway been to use the Tanic acid within the natural wood to do the conversion. Why oak because it is loaded with Tanic acid and will naturally turn color. Fuming white oak (mission furniture) with a very strong ammonia gas is what I have used on furniture. What you have tried to do is force the reaction in a piece of wood which on its own will never Ebonize. Since you are limited to what you can introduce into the wood fibers, the results will vary depending on the wood you choose. Even within a specific species the porosity of the wood will vary from spot to spot on the same piece of wood. I am not saying this isn't a legitimate finishing process, I just dont see the reason to use this method on a guitar. It reaaly is like making a dye. Given the protective coats applied on an instrument, it will more than keep any finish or dye looking good for a long time. A piece of furniture however where a light protective layer may wear and expose the wood this process will help keep the color from changing as this is now the actual wood color created by the process. So in conclusion you might as well just paint it black or dye it black with a high quality dye as your results will most likely be more consistent. Its not a piece of furniture where a small section of marginal ebonizing or fuming will go unnoticed. Given the two piece back and large glue line where you tapered the rear body to provide greater access to the neck I think a solid black paint is what is required. Even if you had used regular Titebond original and standard dye this joint would be problematic even in the best of circumstances. I also want to point out finishing is not my strong suit so I am no expert like Drak. And this is only my 2 cents worth of opinion which carries little weight for most people. Nor did I want to hijack your build. One rule I try to follow is let other people experiment with their guitars. That way you learn from their mistakes or suscesses rather than make your own. Now this does not apply to a design you are creating but it does apply to building methods and finishing techniques. This Ebonizing process has been around a long time and if no one has used it on a guitar their must be a reason. I bummed myself out posting this, Anyway I cant wait to see the final guitar posted on the guitar of the month poll. Any chance you can provide the dragon drawing for the cutout, so we a can use it. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.