erOSIon Posted October 7, 2003 Report Share Posted October 7, 2003 Hello everyone, Im a noob at guitar finishing and am building my own LP style guitar. I have extensive knowledge in automotive finishing, but havent the slightest clue about wood. The body of this guitar was purchased from warmouth, and is swamp ash. Here goes my questions. 1. Should the wood be sanded before applying filler? 2. does anyone know where i can get a dyed filler (dark blue, or black)? 3. What do i clean the wood with/ 4. I would like to dye the guitar a dark blue/black (for dark grain) and am unsure about how to go about it, any suggestions? 5. Water based or oil based dyes? 6. Brush on or spray on? Im not worried about clearcoating as i already know how to do that, im worried about the dying part, so any advice on prepping swamp ash (a difficult wood) would be greatly apreciated.. Thanks! Tom jr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsl602000 Posted October 7, 2003 Report Share Posted October 7, 2003 Tom, I suggest you take a look here That'll answer most, if not all, your questions. Coen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Litchfield Custom Gutars Posted October 8, 2003 Report Share Posted October 8, 2003 I sand, then I spray Deft sanding sealer, then sand that...much like primer sealer or sandable primer...then do your dyes, and clear..if its a solid color...go with the automotive stuff...just dont go as thick...Fender has been doing it like that for years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Litchfield Custom Gutars Posted October 8, 2003 Report Share Posted October 8, 2003 Sorry...dye then sealer. I make my dye out of food coloring, because I can get a more vibrant finish that way. Mix it 3:1 with water based poly then lightly sand, re apply until desired finsh is achieved. Kind wipe on, wipe off...otherwise it dries cloudy. Water based dyes are my fave, no exp W/ oil. DO NOT USE ALCOHAOL DYES!! Alcohol will disolve the celluose fibers in wood, thus turning it into cork! Referring to alcohol dye: Um....wrong. This was erronious infor I got from someone who was wrong. Perhaps he meant amonia, but alcohol dyes are fine. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulNeeds Posted October 8, 2003 Report Share Posted October 8, 2003 I make my dye out of food coloring, because I can get a more vibrant finish that way. Mix it 3:1 with water based poly then lightly sand, re apply until desired finsh is achieved. Kind wipe on, wipe off...otherwise it dries cloudy. top tip that one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar_ed Posted October 8, 2003 Report Share Posted October 8, 2003 Howdy, I also use water based dyes on my guitars. And the proper order is dye, fill, and then if you want, dye again. You can see what I have done Here. I would suggest using some scrap wood first to test how the dye actually works on your wood, and to see how the clear coat will impact the finish, because it will. Later days, Guitar Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulNeeds Posted October 8, 2003 Report Share Posted October 8, 2003 The filling. I take it this is a kind of clear material? This bit is something I really have not got in my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 Research all finishing techniques before you decide on using non UV resistant food colouring, which is designed for eating, and temporarily colouring food, rather than the cheaper option of wood and lacquer specific dyes which are designed for woodworker projects and have an extremely long lifespan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 DO NOT USE ALCOHAOL DYES!! Alcohol will disolve the celluose fibers in wood, thus turning it into cork! To the newbies, this advice is also incorrect. Alcohol dyes are specifically designed for use on wood, and within lacquer. Food dyes are designed to be BAKED... so feel free to put you nice new guitar in the oven and cook it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan hipson Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 Hi I have just finnished my first guitar body also swamp ash. I made many mistakes even after reading all the tutorials and getting advice from the forum. the best advice I can give you is take great care at the filler stage, if you dont get ALL the grain filled you will be left with tiny pits in your finnish take your time fill sand check and fill again keep doing it till is right, it makes a big difference in the end finnish. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregP Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 Thanks for that advice-- I am certainly the kind of guy who would put the filler in/on, take a look and say "Meh, must be good enough." Now I'll remember that I've been warned, and I will take more time. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 I recently have been trying to learn the proper procedure of dying Swamp Ash myself. After alot of research I learned that there are alot of different ways you can get a good result. I've talked to 2 great guitar makers and each one does it a slightly different way. One says that to get the great look, you dye the wood first, then wash coat, water base grain fill, then poly. He uses waterbase dyes and waterbase grain filler. He uses Alcohol based dyes on only maple. Swamp Ash isn't maple as it is harder to work with. The other was from a leading manufacture, which uses Swamp Ash on some guitars. They described the method as such. They grain fill first, then shoot a dye mixture(didn't mention how or what), then top coats. I'd would recommend you using the Stew Mac concentrated dyes, they can be mixed as you would want with water or alcohol. Either way it's kinda tricky getting a good looking dye job on Swamp Ash without alot of practice, and I'm still learning myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan hipson Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Hi I went the first way, Preped wood then water based dye leave to dry for 24 hours light sand then tack cloth and grain fill ( I used a clear cellulose based filler ) wait 10 mins and scrape off excess (scrape across the grain and try and force as much into any larger grain pits as possable) try and get as much excess off at this stage as possable to save sanding later wait 1 to 2 hours then sand flat. check for any pits, refill the areas where the pits were then repeat till no pits are visable. Its one of those jobs where paitence pays off big. After the grain fill I spray some coats of sanding sealer and leave for 24 hours then sand flat. You are then on to the clear coats. Hope this helps Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Litchfield Custom Gutars Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Food dyes are designed to be BAKED... so feel free to put you nice new guitar in the oven and cook it... Mixed with poly it is fine. Stop acting like a child will ya? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Food dyes are designed to be BAKED... so feel free to put you nice new guitar in the oven and cook it... Mixed with poly it is fine. Stop acting like a child will ya? We have had one member who had the entire finish fade within 6 months, why do you continue to ramp your methods that are: a) clearly not designed for lacquering or staining of wood, that are more expensive per instrument ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Litchfield Custom Gutars Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 It is still effective and that isnt the main point. The point is by being so adamant about this, you are effectively trying to totally ruin any credibility I do have. If you dont believe that it does not work, that's fine. The fact that it does, can be proven. That is the point is it not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizzy_elephant Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 do the e-numbers not affect your performance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Litchfield Custom Gutars Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 I dont understand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizzy_elephant Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 lol... dont worry bout it... was just a crack on the additives found in couloring and flavouring products which when consumed can have detrimental effects on human behaviour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarfrenzy Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 As far as food dye goes I have no experience with it at all, not saying it won't work, but I'm just too scared at that point of the building process that I wouldn't dare try it, in fear that I'll mess up a guitar that I spent so much time on. If you can get food dye to work for you then great, use it, but for me I'll pay a little more and get dyes that have been proven to work great, not fade, and look awesome. I guess the question I have is are you buying and using food dye because it's alot cheaper than dyes designed for wood or are you actually getting it because the results are just as good or better? No offense, actually just wondering myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Litchfield Custom Gutars Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 I was buying it to make small batches when I was making prototypes and one off colors. Yes the results were just as good, and have stood up to UV and stage lighting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsl602000 Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Something else: Did you guys notice the question was from a new forum member who never came back or took the time to say thanks? Not meaning to hyjack the thread, but this is pissing me off big time and the sole reason I barely take the time to answer questions by people with post count 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Litchfield Custom Gutars Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 I also noticed that it is an extremely old thread dug up for what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhoads56 Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 I also noticed that it is an extremely old thread dug up for what? Because this thread was referred to recently by a poster that stated "i searched and found a cheap way to make dyes". Hence the reason i posted here, to let people know that research is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Litchfield Custom Gutars Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 No I believe YOU dug this up. The post you referred to can be found here. It was also determined that he did not use the advice I posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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