Guitar Setup: 2 Missing Important Items. No, 3.

[Wonko]

I've been looking around the forum and have not found reference to what I consider two important setup items. Maybe three.

1. I've seen reference to adjusting the bow, but with dangerous advice. How many broken truss rods occur because someone was tightening it... with the strings tuned? OK, you'll get away with it 99% of the time, but a broken truss rod or stripped allen hole aren't worth the odds. Loosen the strings, make an adjustment, then tune up again to measure. IMHO.

2. GREAT advice in an earlier post about adjusting the bow, using a capo on the first string to adjust the bridge height, then adjusting the bridge height, all before adjusting the nut height. But missing from this is adjusting the point of departure of the string from the nut. If the nut was filed by a hack, it may have the point of departure far enough off so that if the guitar is in tune with the strings open, it's noticably out of tune when fretted, especially on the first few frets. You'll never intonate the guitar properly until this is taken care of.

OK, 3. The sound of a string decays in apparent pitch during its sustain period. I suspect this is due to the decay of the higher harmonics to below the audible or measurable range. You can watch this happen on most tuners. If you want to tune accurately, you have to tune a string which JUST GOT STRUMMED. I've noticed less decay of apparent pitch when the string is strummed toward the middle of its length, but my solution has been to continually pick the string while I'm tuning it. You can't intonate or tune accurately unless you sample the note repeatably with respect to time since you picked it.

[rhoads56]

I've been looking around the forum and have not found reference to what I consider two important setup items. Maybe three.

1. I've seen reference to adjusting the bow, but with dangerous advice. How many broken truss rods occur because someone was tightening it... with the strings tuned? OK, you'll get away with it 99% of the time, but a broken truss rod or stripped allen hole aren't worth the odds. Loosen the strings, make an adjustment, then tune up again to measure. IMHO.

2. GREAT advice in an earlier post about adjusting the bow, using a capo on the first string to adjust the bridge height, then adjusting the bridge height, all before adjusting the nut height. But missing from this is adjusting the point of departure of the string from the nut. If the nut was filed by a hack, it may have the point of departure far enough off so that if the guitar is in tune with the strings open, it's noticably out of tune when fretted, especially on the first few frets. You'll never intonate the guitar properly until this is taken care of.

OK, 3. The sound of a string decays in apparent pitch during its sustain period. I suspect this is due to the decay of the higher harmonics to below the audible or measurable range. You can watch this happen on most tuners. If you want to tune accurately, you have to tune a string which JUST GOT STRUMMED. I've noticed less decay of apparent pitch when the string is strummed toward the middle of its length, but my solution has been to continually pick the string while I'm tuning it. You can't intonate or tune accurately unless you sample the note repeatably with respect to time since you picked it.

1. waste of time. never seen a truss rod break or strip from correct usage, with the correct size tools, when the instrument is at full pitch. Have seen a few from people who think eight full turns of a dual action truss rod might... just... be... enough.... and then it snaps

2. kinda dont understand the reasoning with this one. Its like saying: be careful when you go around a corner in your car, cause the wheels might not be on properly, and it will never turn like you want it to if they arent on tight... make sure your wheels are on tight!!

3. so you prefer to tune your guitar so its in tune, for all of one second, before dropping in pitch so slightly its almost not noticable, unless you have an extremely keen ear? The difference is so small, i challenge anyone to hear it in a band situation (let alone a single instrument). Ive had many MANY people come to me to ask them to rectify a 2-5th fret tuning problem, but never EVER a problem that like "the pitch drops after half a second and then stays like that (in tune) until the note dies naturally, what can i do!?!?".

[Wonko]

1. waste of time. never seen a truss rod break or strip from correct usage

I have.

2. kinda dont understand the reasoning with this one. Its like saying: be careful when you go around a corner in your car, cause the wheels might not be on properly, and it will never turn like you want it to if they arent on tight... make sure your wheels are on tight!!

Yep. Unless you understand that I was referring to a step by step set of setup instructions which don't include that step, but are leading toward intonation. For anyone who needs such a list, that's a necessary step.

3. so you prefer to tune your guitar so its in tune, for all of one second, before dropping in pitch so slightly its almost not noticable, unless you have an extremely keen ear? The difference is so small, i challenge anyone to hear it in a band situation (let alone a single instrument).

SURE! But we're talking about intonation here. The difference between, say tuning the open string a second after plucking, followed by checking the tuning at the 12th a few seconds after plucking with a view toward bridge adjustment will be noticable. To me, anyway. It's the difference between getting the bridge in the right place, and in almost the right place.

But I'm picky. I don't use the 5th fret/7th fret harmonic trick when tuning, because it's a little off. (Do the math.) And I never, ever tune a string down. I go flat and tune it up. For reasons that seem good to me, though most would consider laughable.

On my classical, I even tune it across a fret somewhere in the middle of the range I'm about to play in, vice open strings. Sounds better that way.

[jaycee]

If you have to turn the truss rod nut a lot then there is something off which an adjustment will not do. So the best thing to do is loosen it off check the trueness of the neck and take it from there.

I always tune my strings from flat to sharp that way you will have the string under tension when in tune

[brewu22]

I've been looking around the forum and have not found reference to what I consider two important setup items. Maybe three.

1. I've seen reference to adjusting the bow, but with dangerous advice. How many broken truss rods occur because someone was tightening it... with the strings tuned? OK, you'll get away with it 99% of the time, but a broken truss rod or stripped allen hole aren't worth the odds. Loosen the strings, make an adjustment, then tune up again to measure. IMHO.

2. GREAT advice in an earlier post about adjusting the bow, using a capo on the first string to adjust the bridge height, then adjusting the bridge height, all before adjusting the nut height. But missing from this is adjusting the point of departure of the string from the nut. If the nut was filed by a hack, it may have the point of departure far enough off so that if the guitar is in tune with the strings open, it's noticably out of tune when fretted, especially on the first few frets. You'll never intonate the guitar properly until this is taken care of.

OK, 3. The sound of a string decays in apparent pitch during its sustain period. I suspect this is due to the decay of the higher harmonics to below the audible or measurable range. You can watch this happen on most tuners. If you want to tune accurately, you have to tune a string which JUST GOT STRUMMED. I've noticed less decay of apparent pitch when the string is strummed toward the middle of its length, but my solution has been to continually pick the string while I'm tuning it. You can't intonate or tune accurately unless you sample the note repeatably with respect to time since you picked it.

I see Where you are coming from, but, Perry has a lot to offer as a guitar building guide. He can offer some tried and true advise. He may sound a little harsh, but he is probably right. I am no expert, but I am sure he is.. Under thinking a task you will end up doing it wrong, over thinking a task, you will be sure to never get it right.

[fryovanni]

1. I would say it is a fair enough. If the adjustment was slight it is not very risky given the instrument is in good working order(IMO). If a guy needed to make significant adjustment, it should not be made in one pass. You should be making small adjustments and checking to see where you are at after re-tuning. Mind you I do not do this for a living so I have not seen nearly as many sets ups as professionals like Perry and other on this board. I think it is a sensable precaution though.

2. It is true that you should inspect an instrument(especially if it is new to you) to make sure everything is in order before making adjustments(no loose screws hardware, badly worn parts). You should also check the less frequently adjusted parts such as bone saddles, and string nut for proper set up, binding from poor set up or significant wear. If I was making a small relief adjustment on one of my personal instruments I would not need to check all of these items(generally the less frequently adjusted- as the last hack that worked on it would have been me ). I guess I would have to have a look at the post you were reading and see what context they were coming from. Again... It is a fair point, and nothing wrong with being thorough.

3. I have been tuning my guitars for a while now. I have never plucked constantly to tune up. My usual tuning method is similar to the way I naturally play (I don't pluck harder, softer, in a different position). Now that has worked for me and seems to have worked just fine. I can certainly understand what you are saying, and agree that the pitch is slightly higher when a string is first struck. My gut tells me it would be damed if you do or damed if you don't. I believe I will stick to trying to emulate normal play.- On a side note... have you tried those little strobe tuners that are similar in size to a pick(I think they are made by a company that makes picks)? I tried one and thought they seemed pretty neat. I have no idea as to the reliability of the little do dads though.

Peace,Rich

[spazzyone]

I am one of those G string drives me up a wall syndrome people

that perry is talking about

and i tune with a tuner then try to find a middle ground

between open and fretted (which is why i use differant guitars for differant songs)

but i have never noticed a change in pitch from picking

unless your realy ripping at your strings

in which case maybe a heavier gauge may help you

and damm i wished Earvana made a Floyd nut

and as for the truss rod if more than a 1/2 to 3/4 turn does not help

you may have other problems that you need to look into

Edited September 28, 2006 by spazzyone

[ihocky2]

I have read books from Dan Erlwine, Dan MacRostie (sp) amd Melvin Hiscock and everyone of them adjusts the truss rod with the strings tuned to pitch. If you follow the directions properly you will not have a problem. First remove the nut from the rod and lubricate it if it is tight at all. Then adjust the rod. You should not need more than a half turn to get the proper relief. If you need a full turn, there is more wrong than the truss rod can fix. I would find it hard to believe that some of the top luthiers and repairmen are adjusting truss rods improperly.

When making adjustments with the capo on the first fret the idea is to eliminate any effect the nut has. So by using the capo, the nut does not matter. As for the action, the nut will come into play. But the distance from the point of departure to the bridge is the scale length. So if you point of departure is .03" into the nut, then you scale length will be slightly longer, but bridges have adjustable saddles, so can move the saddle to get you intonation set correctly. The only place this is a problem is on non-adjustable bridges.

If you are playing a song that you hold a note for several seconds you are not going to continuosly pick the string. So why tune like you would? Unless you are on a continuos shred fest and running the length of the neck all night where your notes are held for a second or less, you are never going to sound like you do when tuning. When playing a show, people hear the entire note, not just the first second. Most when recording or playing a show, no one listening is going to pick out the minor pitch change over the rest of the sounds.

[Wonko]

>I would find it hard to believe that some of the top luthiers and repairmen are adjusting truss rods improperly.

Do you have any idea how long doctors bled patients for mos' any ailment? Centuries.

>if you point of departure is .03" into the nut, then you scale length will be slightly longer, but bridges have adjustable saddles, so can move the saddle to get you intonation set correctly.

? The situation you describe will mean that if you tune the string open, when you fret it on the first fret, the string will be noticeably sharp. Unless you are fretless, in which case, never mind.

>If you are playing a song that you hold a note for several seconds you are not going to continuosly pick the string. So why tune like you would?

Because most of the notes that I play are held for a very short length of time. If I was going to play and hold long notes, I would tune accordingly.

>Unless you are on a continuos shred fest and running the length of the neck all night where your notes are held for a second or less, you are never going to sound like you do when tuning.

What about rhythm guitar? Not everyone plays lead. I suppose that if I were to hold a long note, and noticed the flattening, I could bend it just a mite. I probably do without thinking.

But my point was really about accurate intonation. The stuff about how I tune and play isn't important at all. I don't play that well anyway. Forget it. But if you intonate really well, you'll like your guitar more, and it'll sound better.

Note to all comers: I'm done defending my POV. I accept the correction about adjusting the neck under tension. I can be taught. Good point about lubing the threads. I'm right about tuning in a repeatable manner for intonation, and about insuring proper departure at the nut before intonation, though, as stated above, for most of us it probably didn't need to be mentioned.

Someone referred to making an intoned nut, (here http://www.mimf.com/nutcomp/ ), which sounded crazy to me at first, but I went home last night and checked my 5-string, and found that the concept has tremendous merit. Strings 1, 2, & 3 were fine. 4, when tuned open, was a bit sharp on the 1st fret, and 5 was wayyy off. Like I said, I can be taught. I'll probably start modifiying that puppy this evening.

[spazzyone]

>.

? The situation you describe will mean that if you tune the string open, when you fret it on the first fret, the string will be noticeably sharp. Unless you are fretless, in which case, never mind.

Not to be Rude but how do you figure if its fretless never mind

fretless or not when you press down on the string you are adding tension

thus making the string go sharp

[GarageRocker]

In addition to the experts mentioned, Rickenbacker and Musicman specifically state that truss rod adjustments should always be made at full tension. A properly installed, properly operating truss rod will not break unless you overcrank it. And if you don't know how to adjust it without overcranking, then you need to take it to someone who does.

OTOH, I've seen a couple of allegedly qualified repairmen who shouldn't be allowed within 500 feet of a truss rod wrench.